This "dumb question" has come up often in talking with fellow Christians. I've always believed Judas Iscariot was NOT saved, or else he wouldn't have "fallen away." My husband has a wonderful litmus test for salvation - did the individual endure? If so, he was saved. If not, he only had the appearance of salvation. I am unable to determine who is among the elect, since someone who is currently atheist could be converted at some point in the future, and those who appear to be among the flock today could prove to have been goats disguised as sheep. The only real "test" is whether that person endures to the end, since the Lord will not abandon his sheep and no true member of the flock will be allowed to wander off for good.

I'd just like to thank you, once again, for being such a voice of reason and faith.

Jen

 

Jen, I like your husband's litmus test because it quite biblical. I don't concern myself with who is elect, for if the angels can't tell a true believer from a tare, who am I? It may well be that those who look most saved will one day fall away, and those who seem most lost and hopeless may one day enter the gates.

It hurts my soul when I am talking to people who ought to know this much by now, and still don't.

 

Hi Daniel,
I hope your soul isn't too hurt over this because I would say that most of the Christians who even kick this question around are mostly convinced that Judas probably wasn't saved. I am anyways, but I think it is interesting study.

:~)

 

Can I just ask about the litmus test a sec? Peter strayed and fell away. What if he had been hit by a bus before he came around? Would that mean he wasn't elect?

If your answer is that God would not have allowed him to depart this earth before he "came around" then we have a whole 'nother variable to election: the timing of death. One's state of living when one dies then becomes the focus of making election sure, rather than (more properly) asking oneself if what Jesus did for me is *enough* to save me no matter what state of life I find myself in. I think that the knowledge that He won my pardon breaks the heart towards repentance *more effectively and spiritually* than wondering if my faith is going to endure till I happen to die.

I think the one is subjective and the other is objective. The subjective: pondering whether my faith will endure. This has a focus on the subject of me. OTOH, reminding myself that Christ is able to forgive all my shortcomings is focused on the object of faith: Jesus.

(I know there weren't any buses)

I do understand that people look at this in other ways.

 

@Rose -

I'm sure Daniel will address your question, but I wanted to chime in with a quick, yes, the elect will not die before they are converted. When I used the term "fall away," I was being a bit sarcastic because I do not believe the elect can fall away permanently. However, many Christians view a falling away as a complete loss of salvation, that must be won back by some means, whereas I believe the Bible is clear that we often stumble, but are never lost. Jesus is making intercession on our behalf ALWAYS. He is the good shepard who will leave the 99 to bring the 1 back to the fold, etc.
The idea of enduring to the end is simply to recognize that the elect will not deny the faith and death removes the last chance for them to do so - just as it presents the last chance for the non-elect to proclaim it.
Jen

 

Hi Jen,
Nice to meet you.
Actually, what I was talking about wasn't a question of whether or not the elect will do before coming to faith. I am asking about a person who comes to faith in Christ -and I use Peter as an example - and they deny Christ or something similar to what Peter did or any other thing that makes it seem like they aren't really a believer. You know, they sort of "fall away" (that is how I used the word). But they have an untimely death before they repent as Peter did, before they come back to walking right and exhibiting fruit.

I think if they had faith and were converted in the past, then it wouldn't prevent this from happening... and this happening to them as a saved person certainly wouldn't prevent them from entering God's presence.

I believe those two points. It sounds like maybe you don't? Correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks!

 

I meant in the first sentence to say "whether or not the elect will DIE"

duh! bad typing.

 

Rose, instead of using Peter, let's use Paul, since we don't have to make up "what if" scenarios to do so.

Scripture tells us that God chose Paul before Paul was born - having set him apart for the ministry Christ was going to call him to do.

What did Paul do? Unlike Peter, who merely denied that he was associated with Jesus - Paul denied that Jesus was God, and put to real-life Christians to horrible deaths in the service of that conviction.

Paul was elect, but about as hell bound as a person can get.

How did Jesus intervine in Paul's life? Did he just allow this elect child to continue walking the path to hell? Or did Christ violently and decisively intervene on the road to Damascus?

Does God play favorites?We say, yeah, I mean, sure, Christ did intervine on the road to Damascus - but hey - that was PAUL - that was a one timer.

People who say that are idiots.

Listen: God didn't choose Paul because God saw potential in Paul. Rather God chose to gift Paul beforehand with that potential in order that Paul would have the resources to fulfill the ministry God was eventually going to call Paul to.

So don't say, "that was Paul" as though Paul did these things and by doing them he earned this special treatment. Rather say, God is not partial - but Christ chooses and saves each one in the same way. Not all who are saved have a Damascus road experience - but all who are saved are saved by Christ personally - every last one of us is that one sheep that Christ goes out to get, and doesn't come back until He does.

You see, if God is truly sovereign, then election means that God will save whom He ordains to save.

 

Rose,

The term "untimely death" is not biblical. Therefore, I do not believe that anyone dies before he was meant to, and in the way he was meant to.
Salvation is a matter of faith in Christ. Faith is a gift from God. People can fake it, and people can appear to have lost it, but that is only appearance. God sees the heart and all those the Father has given Jesus will not be lost.
Reading Pilgrim's Progress was very helpful in smoothing out my understanding of the doctrine of eternal security.
So many of Christian's "fallings away" happened after he passed through the gate and had his burden removed. The journey is long or short, laced with many perils, but the burden was removed once for all.
Jen

 

".. but all who are saved are saved by Christ personally.."

And for the genuine born again child of Christ, that brings humility to the heart, and peace to the mind.

It's amazing to think Christ loved us-loved me-, loved Daniel-, loved Rose, personally. Amazing indeed.

Judas is in hell. Jesus said that he'd been better off never being born. But I deserve hell just as Judas, "But God..."

And a very good teaching comment on Paul Daniel. Excellent thoughts on election.

 

Salvation

This is for those who have a slight problem in understanding what "Salvation" is.
Salvation= Faith:= Belief:= Understanding:= Compassion:= Doing right by God.

Faith without repentance Saves no one.

Arlington Hopkins
May God Bless.