Daniel, one thing about Romans 6 that I like is the fact that here we are declared positionally crucified with Christ. Not only are we crucified, but we are buried and risen with Him.

Our old man, the flesh, has been nailed to that cross in the person of Jesus Christ, and now we can by the Spirit put to death the practices of the body.

Would you not agree that taking up the cross has as its primary goal the putting to death of the flesh? A dead body cannot sin, and as we reckon it so we are set free from sin's power and dominion.

Christ's shed blood is there to cleanse and wash us, making us able to stand in His presence where by His Spirit we can live pleasing to God.

But there is no shortcut as you so pointedly mention here...the cross is where we must die.

Praise the Lord death is not the end, but the beginning. May the Lord give us eyes to see the abundant life He promised by His Spirit.

 

Daniel, "But God doesn't bring life to those who haven't gone to the cross and down into the grave. If you want to be raised in newness of life, you better submit yourself to the cross for only those who have died are freed from the sin."

Powerful thoughts.

 

Would you not agree that taking up the cross has as its primary goal the putting to death of the flesh?

I would say that taking up the cross has as its primary goal the receiving of the death on the cross. No one kills themselves, they simply offer themselves to the process.

A novice water skier is told to keep their legs together, bend their knees like so, hold on, and lean back and to -stay- that way until the boat pulls them up and above the water.

The same may get in the water and assume the position, the boat powers up and their face becomes a water plow, and they let go or they lean forward, or they stop doing what they are told and they don't get above the water. They must believe it will work and try again. Eventually if they assume the right "attitude" (position) they are pulled above the water and begin water skiing.

The thing is, they don't water ski by running quickly above the water with skis on - no, they do not ski by their own power, the boat must pull them.

It is the same with the cross. We don't crucify ourselves, God does that - our job is surrender.

If we don't understand that, our language can confuse what we are saying. We will say that we must "put to death the deeds of the flesh" meaning that we no longer indulge our carnal appetite, but surrender to God in those moments. Not that this "-is-" crucifixion, this is surrender. As we do these things God sanctifies us a little. It isn't that the thing we are doing is the actual sanctification. Doing something doesn't change me, it just changes what I am doing - but when I assume the proper attitude, the power of God will begin to change me.

So I think we agree, but I would not want to articulate it that way, not that it is "wrong" but that it can obfuscate or confuse the role of works in the process of sanctification - causes the works themselves to be mistaken for sanctification - as though our entire sanctification was a matter of breaking old habits and making better ones through the power of positive thinking.

 

Mark - I think a lot of Christians haven't the first clue why their practical Christianity resembles every other "do good" world religion. They wonder why they have no real desire to see people come to Christ, to love God, etc. etc. They can polish the outside of the cup by cutting out all the public and obvious external sin - but they are helpless to deal with anger, spite, strife, jealousy, lovelessness, etc. They know they are supposed to love but they don't - so they do crazy things like redefine love as an "action" so that they can be "loving" etc. They go about like Pharisees trying to produce what is supposed to be there, and in doing they show themselves deceived and even hypocrites.

All of this because rather than surrender the rule of their life to God, they try to hold onto their sin and "listen as best they can" - a fence sitting formula that cannot work - God is light, and there is no darkness in Him - those who would fellowship with God cannot sit on the fence, because God won't meet them there - He will not become darkness in order to fellowship with those who hold in their heart some small room for rebellion and disobedience (sin) - no, they must come into the light as he is in the light - and anyone who imagines they are fellowshipping with God when they are holding onto their sin or making provision to disobey God somewhere else - the same are deceived. God does -not- walk in darkness, and will not fellowship with us there.

The mistake many make is in trying to enter the light by doing good - when you can only enter by surrendering all.

 

Daniel, I guess it could be perceived that way as a self crucifixion. No we do not crucify ourselves but we must be willing to place our bodies on the cross so to speak. Even as Christ willing went to the cross.

The hard part to grasp is that this needs to be a daily exercise. There is just no finality with the flesh until it lies in the grave.

 

In Romans 6:13, ("Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.") the same verb (βασιλευετω) is translated as "present" both times [ESV], but the tenses are different.

The first use is in the present active imperative, and the second in the aorist active imperative (both are second person plurals). The difference is the first use carries the idea of not presenting your members moment by moment to injustice, but the second "present" is in the aorist, indicating a completed, "once and for all" sort of action - that is, present yourselves to God in an once and for all sort of way.

It is a shame that English doesn't really carry the weight of the aorist in this verse because what we tend to do is we think of this verse as meaning that we should switch from presenting our members as instruments of sin, and begin "presenting" them instead as instruments of righteousness to God. It is a subtlety I will admit, but it is an important one. What is called for is not a momentary switcheroo, not some new way of presenting your members - but a once and for all decision.

 

Amen Daniel.

 

dude, how did you get the cool greek text?

 

Frank - unicode for instance & #945; (no spaces) is an alpha (α)