totally agree with you brother. o that God would keep us glued to His Word so that we, the church, might continue to be the pillar for the truth!

 

Amen Steve. Christ said, "If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness! ... therefore take head that the light which is in you is not darkness".

By default men love darkness rather than the light which they do not comprehend, but Christ said "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life." Later he qualified what it meant to follow him, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."

I was explaining this to my children last night in our bible time. We were reading and meditating on Romans 7:15-20 (the "I don't do what I want to do, but do what I don't want to do" passage). Before we began our study and meditation we turned to 1 Corinthians 2:14 ("the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God...") and primed thus, I riddled the kids with the question of why we bother to pray before we meditate on the word of God (Because spiritual things are not discerned because of intellect, but rather are given by the same Spirit who inspired the bible). I gave the example of a man who reads the bible every day but isn't a Christian - he may know a lot about Jesus, but he doesn't know Jesus. The reason (I explained) that we as Christians study the word of God and meditate on it should not be simply to become experts at knowing about Jesus, for one need not even be a Christian to do that - to focus on the shed light instead of on the Lamp that is shedding that light is just one way in which well meaning Christians stumble - and some fumble with this all their life - caught indefinitely in that flood of deceit.

Thanks for reading the post Steve, I have been so absent lately my presumption is that no one is reading the blog anymore.

 

I have been checking in to read it because I really appreciate your teaching. Maybe I'm noone. (but I raise my hand and say "present!")

When the Bible is presented by an anointed teacher as the rich ore that it is, explained in it's cultural context, word derivations and such; I am fed far more than the "other" type of sermons - opinions based on the experience of the preacher and supported by scripture. Sometimes those guys write themselves off as inaccessible to me just because I cannot relate to their experience or their thought patterns.

I am blessed to have found your site as it helps meet a teaching need at this time.

peace -
MaLady

 

So what does it mean when the earth opened up and swallowed the flood that came from Satan's mouth? No one seemed to be swept away.

 

MaLady, thank you for your encouraging words - they are appreciated!

Jonathan, it means the same as what is meant when Christ said that false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. When I say men were deceived by the master of deceit and swept away - I am not suggesting that these men who were swept away were the elect, what I am doing is taking a truth that is taught elsewhere in scripture and expressing it according to this same metaphor so that what scripture teaches here and what scripture teaches elsewhere can be examined side by side and understood more completely.

The main point here is not to match metaphors with other texts however, it is to show that Satan is a liar, and a deceiver and that this is the way in which he wages war against the true saints of God - by inundating the world with every false way, the end result of which is that the visible church is "dilluted" with tares in direct proportion to our enemy's having deceived people into thinking they are Christians.

I hope that makes sense, but I am willing to be corrected if you see something that needs to be changed. Let me know.

 

Daniel, sorry it took me so long to get back. I guess I don't see any connection between John 8:44 and Revelation 12, even as metaphor. Nowhere does Rev 12:13-18 talk about Satan lying or deceiving. In fact, it appears that what comes from Satan's mouth is not even words, since it (water, maybe an army?) is swallowed up by the earth. Do you understand the narrative of Rev 12 as having historical significance?

 

Jonathan, you need not apologize! I have four kids a fulltime job and a full teaching/leadership ministry. Blogging is what I do when I should be sleeping ;-), I know that discussion such as this ought to be (rightly so) low on our list of priorities.

I hope you do not think I am am suggesting that there is a "link" between John 8:44 and Revelation 12 - goodness no!

I would suggest however that any time scripture talks about Satan (or anyone else for that matter) that we bring to the table everything scripture says about Satan, that is just the way my hermeneutic works - I know that [1] John wrote both texts (the gospel of John and the book of Revelation) and that [2] the same audience was reading both, and that [3] the book of Revelation (AD 94-96) dates to a time after the gospel of John (AD 80-90); which is only to say that my presumption (for that is what it is) is that the readers of revelation knew that Satan was a liar and that there was absolutely no truth in him whatsoever as John made clear in his earlier writings.

So when I read Revelation 12 and it says that Satan opened his mouth and water came out, I do not ignore the way scripture elsewhere and often refers to the nations using the imagery of water - heavens no! Nor do I couch the scene in a predetermined theological grid that forces me to interpret it according to some conclusions I already have come to (premil, amil, etc.) - rather I just say - what could this water be? Surely the water might represent armies - but I would go one step further, armies of who? why armies of unbelievers of course, deceived into thinking either [a] that there is no God and that Christianity is evil, or [b] that Christianity is a false religion and that some other religion is in fact the genuine article - the particular deception is beside the point, but what is certain is that whatever it is that comes after the child - it is driven by lies, and lies have this effect - they can be believed whole heartedly, or they can merely water down the truth. Floods have this characteristic - they come in such a way as to wipe out everything that doesn't have a foundation more powerful than the flood itself. The picture therefore of the flood that comes from the dragon seems quite in tune with what we know of our enemy - and *that* was the focus of my post.

I agree with you that the word "lying" isn't used in that passage, but neither is the word "army" - which is to say that John was using imagery to describe something both historical and spiritual - and in order to do more than admire the poetry, we are going to have to (on some level) [1] speculate as to what John's imagery is portraying, and [2] be willing to be wrong in our speculation.

But I do not impose the idea of lies and deceit into Revelations 12 all willy-nilly (at least I hope I don't?). Consider that John says that he saw three unclean spirits coming out of the mouth of [1] the dragon, [2] the the beast, and [3] the false prophet (Rev 16) he goes on to describe what was coming out of their mouths - demons which perform signs and go out to all the kings of the earth and to the whole world to gather the world to come to the battle of armegeddon - then I remember that it was only in Revelation 13 where the same beast performs signs and wonders (13:13) for the purpose of (and having this effect) deceiving those who dwell on the earth (verse 13:14). That is, I haven't plucked out of thin air the idea that what is coming out of the mouth of the dragon is deceit - rather I have regarded what is said elsewhere in the same text what is meant by "coming out of the mouth" and what is picture - and what is plainly described - and that is deceit.

That is not to say that I regard my understanding as "correct" - rather it is to say this is what I see right now. Revelation, being a book of prophesy that involves a lot of imagery - is not the place I feel comfortable making a "sure" affirmation. I offer what I do with the caveat that I am giving it my best "guess" and it should be taken as nothing more.

You asked if I understand the narrative of Revelation 12 as having historical significance. I would say I do in a sense - it seems to me that the same prophetic story is being told seven times and in seven ways, and Revelation 12 is one of the seven ways all of history, beginning to end, is being summarized. Now, that is a very high level statement, and I would warn anyone who hears it to take it with this caveat - I do not give the book revelation any extra attention in my reading, and I have no theological framework that demands I interpret it one way or the other - given therefore that I am no expert on the text, nor have I any investment in any particular conclusion; I stand ready to be instructed out of any error I am making, for I have no emotional commitment to my present understanding, nor have I any theological pressure to believe one way over another. Frankly, I am quite satisfied that I understand the book of revelation with as much exactitude as the Lord feels I need, and I rest assured that when I need more He will provide.

Which is a very long way of saying, I think it means this, but I am open to instruction.

 

Daniel, you make me chuckle. I love all the qualifiers (LOL)! I think everyone who comes to Revelation has to come with that type of humility. Thank you for your explanation.

 

no problem. ;-)