Yep! Eagerly.

 

I am now :)

 

Question:

"Now I'm going to argue that the admission of continuing prophecy by even Grudem and Piper is the admission that it has some utility. ... Now, they're going to insist as very moderate continuationists on the importance of the Word and that no fallible prophetic guidance should take people in an opposite direction to the Word. ... But I think it still is distracting from what has to be central in Christian guidance and that is the light that the Spirit of God sheds on the Word of God that He has inspired. I believe that we have to be very Word-centered. If we are going to claim God's guidance in any situation we have to claim on the basis of the revealed precepts and principles of the Word of God."

Daniel, do you think the cessasionist position is self-contradictory here? The Cessationist says "Word only, illumined by the Spirit", but in the same breath calls out the continuationist for saying that fallible prophetic/teaching gifts are in effect. Certainly we are fallible in grasping the Spirit illumined Word...

OR

am I reading a continuatist position into the cessationist arguement thereby making a strawman?

 

Marc,

I imagine he is framing his response in the context of verses such as - "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" - 1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV) and "But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything--and is true and is no lie, just as it has taught you--abide in him." - 1 John 2:27

All illumination, that is, all ability to accept/comprehend spiritual truths, comes from/through the Spirit. That is, I can read the bible all I want, and I can intellectually argue that the things I have read are true - but until God's Spirit illuminates my undestanding I have nothing more than an argument - and I will give it up if a better one comes along. When Christ opens our eyes on a text, they cannot be closed to the meaning of that text, likewise, until Chirst opens our understanding regarding a teaching, it remains closed.

Illumination is therefore different than divine guidance. We all act in accordance to our understanding of "what is right and acceptable to God" While we may not do so perfectly because of sin, we are only ever going to be able to conduct ourselves according to our understanding of what is right and acceptable to God. When our understanding is greater, our capacity to act correctly is increased. Perhaps that is why Paul prayed so often for others to come to a greater knowledge of Christ? Either way, the point is that scripture isn't a rulebook that dictates our conduct - it is a letter of introduction by which we become aquainted with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As our understanding of the person character of Jesus Christ grows (through divine illumination) so to our likeness to him increases from glory to glory. If I didn't know my wife I would need a list of instruction about how to please her - but once I begin to know my wife, I do not need a written code, I simply know her and I know what is pleasing to her. So it is with scripture - as I look into the scriptures I begin to know Christ - and that knowledge of Christ is what guides me. My command of the bible is an extension of my relationship with Christ. Where did I learn such and such about Jesus? Oh, that was in chapter such and such, and verse such and such. That verse right there taught me this about our Lord, and I am convicted therefore that such and such an action would be out of character for Christ's Spirit within me.

Perhaps I zoomed in a bit much there - but the point would be that illumination of scripture, as I understand it - equates to knowing Christ.

Prophetic utterance,in this context at least (again, as I understand it), is not a divine illumination on the text of scripture such that we have a greater knowledge of Christ; rather it is a short circuiting or bypassing altogether of knowledge of Christ, and instead of producing a greater and edifying understanding of the person of Jesus Christ in the believer, and thereby in the local church in which the believer is situated - it instead is a "divine" caveat to scripture - a managerial addendum divinely catered to the moment to otherwise (possibly?) compensate for a lack of wisdom.

I haven't read his book, so I am just picking this off of what he said, but if I understand it correctly, these two are entirely different things, and therefore the statement is not very contradictory.

I say that, but I am a poor reader, and I only really gave the thing a once over. So take everything I say with that caveat.

 

Amen and amen! Christ Himself is the living Word. How can we expect to completely understand the Bible apart from Him. In Christ are hidden all the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God. Oh that the eyes of our heart may be fully opened to see the surpassing greatness and glory of Jesus.

Thanks for fleshing this out so well.

Luke 11:13

 

dude, check out my response to the last part of the interview and post a response if you have one :)

 

Thank you Daniel for speaking to the nature of the Spirit leading us to Christ in the Word.

This has further stimulated my thinking. :)

 

Mark, no problem. As I said, I am no expert, that was my take on it.

Sorry for calling you Marc, - oversight on my part.

 

Daniel,

How do you do add this "READ MORE" thing on your blog? Do you have some special code to put into the TEMPLATE? I want to implement it for others so they don't have tired finger syndrome going up and down the blog

 

Shawn,

I emailed you the solution.

Dan