Daniel, that was a ver insiteful peice. I think you are definitely on the right track with this. I have no problem with people raising their hands, but the Scriptural reference to lifting holy hands (1Timothy 2:8) emphasises holy, not lifting.

Psalms 24:3-5 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? 4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. 5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

I'm afraid most of the uplifted hands are there because it feels good, and as you suggest, there isn't a lot of thought given to any aspect of "worship."

 

I agree with you. Your description is pretty close to what I've seen. You didn't include a repurposed secular song. The amount of time singing is accurate, but often 1/2 the number of songs are used, and the 4 line chorus is repeated over and over again for much too long.

v-word: prtdyu.. as in, is it [im]prt't d yu? (is it important to you?)

 

Doh! I forget the repurposed secular tune!

 

I noticed that you are cooler depending on how you hold your hands up as well.

First there is the "single hand barely raised folks". They must be new to hand raising and not yet comfortable with it yet.

Second there are the two-handed hand raisers that raise their hands like its a stick up (palms away from them).

And finally you have the "palms towards them and aiming up" people. Having your eyes closed, and swaying a bit completes this look and makes you look very cool in a modern church.

I'd like to go back to worrying more about what we're singing than how trendy we're looking.

 

Fish Taco - now that you mention it I have noticed the various degrees of hand raising.

I know that there are some genuinely spiritual "hand raisers" but I am convinced that they are the rare exception - much like the gift of tongues. I believe there is a genuine gift of languages (that is, speaking and being understood in known languages) though I have yet to see anyone speak in the way that is described in the book of Acts. I am not entirely convinced that the gift has ceased though I don't dismiss that possibility - but I do believe that every public demonstration of this phenomenon I have ever seen or heard of has either been disingenuous or a learned behavior founded on wrong information.

likewise with the hand raising - people do it because other people do it.

 

Daniel,

I agree with you on both point (hands and tongues). I don't mind the genuine hand raisers, however around here it seems trendy for the kids my age to raise their hands and then complain about the "old fashioned" people that don't raise their hands. Which leads me to believe its not genuine.

 

DbD - Thanks for the exhortation sister.

I would point out, that all three verses you quoted regarding "raising hands" do not refer to singing but rather to praying, and none are a commandment regarding the assumed posture.

My point was that the bible doesn't tell us to raise our hands when we sing, nor is it especially spiritual to do so.

I was careful to reserve my comments to those who are disingenuous in raising their hands - that is, they are not led by God to do it, but by man. I liken them to the Pharisee who prayed poublically for all to hear thanking "god" that he was not like other men - the purpose of which was so that those around him might know how holy he was. Christ used this public display of personal holiness as the example of what "not to do" as a Christian. It is one thing to raise your hands because you love the Lord, and another to raise your hands because everyone else is doing it.

I have no problem with singing in the congregation - we should! My concern is with those who make a show of puttin up their hands.

I will watch my attitude dear sister, and do not hesitate to call me on it if it seems off. Thanks for being willing to say something.

 

DBD - thanks for your further explanation. We all must stay vigilant lest our pride deceives us so that we pursue the reputation of humility rather than humility itself.

I don't think Jesus lifted his hands while singing, and both history and scripture support that notion. I don't doubt that Jesus sang songs about prayer - Paul tells us that the purpose of our singing is as much to edify one another as it is to give glory to God.

I do however hesitate to presume that Christ pantomimed the actions described in the psalm He was singing. It is a stretch for me therefore to presume that raised hands is an appropriate posture on the premise you have provided. Can you imagine Christ and a room full of disciples pantomiming thefinal verse in Psalm 137?

I certainly allow that if a person is "praying the song" they can raise their hands while singing - so long as they normally pray with raised hands and the raising of the hands is not just something they are doing because they are singing. I hope that distinction is understandable.

Please don't interpret my continued interest in this thread as a willingness to debate the point - I feel that there is "value added" to an original post when it generates a better definition of what was originally said. In this case, I really am thankful for your comments because they cause me to clarify exactly what I mean - and that is always better in the long run. Thanks again.

 

DBD - I likely overstated my position when I said that history and scripture support the idea that Jesus didn't lift his hands. What I should have said is that neither history nor the bible suggest that lifting hands is a valid posture for singing.

I can picture the apostles lifting their hands as they sang some of the psalms too; yet this ability to visualize it does not make it orthodox.

I suppose we differ in that I see no reason to pantomime whatever comes out of our lips when we sing, be that bowing, dancing, lifting my hands or whatever. There is no command to do so and no suggestion that doing so has any spiritual value.

I agree, when something is commanded we ought to, nay, we must practice it. In this case however, we have no command, just a personal preference.

And here is the heart of the matter for me. We must always be on guard lest we elevate some personal preference or practice to the level of doctrine.

In this case, raising hands while one sings is a personal preference and not a doctrinal requirement. If someone does it, let their heart be right with God and I am satisfied. I do not speak against those who raise their hands in genuine (albeit misinformed) piety - rather I speak against those who adopt the posture out of habit, tradition, or and (perhaps especially) because that is what becomes the expectation.

Some congregations are trained and encouraged by the pastors to shout "Amen!" from the pews whenever they agree with something from the pulpit. After a time however, some people shout "Amen" just because others are doing it.

My worry is that much of our "pious expressions of faith" are in fact learned behaviors that are entirely carnal in origin.

I don't deny that some people raise their hands in genuine faith and from a right heart, I just think they are misinformed and entirely in a very, very small minority.

 

DBD - you're certainly not annoying me! :-D

I do hear what you're saying, and I agree that there is nothing wrong with clapping or shouting.

My "beef" if you will, is with the hand raising - and more specifically with disingenuous hand raising.

While a song can be a prayer, it is not always a prayer. Furthermore not every congregational song is directed at God ("singing to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs..."), some of our songs are supposed to be to encourage, exhort, and edify one another.

I have no problem when a person raises their hands when singing a song that they are making a personal prayer to God assuming of course that the individual is doing so out of a genuine misunderstanding of the command to "lift holy hands" (that is, they interpret it to mean "assume this mechanical posture" rather than "make sure you're hands are holy when you pray"). In such a case the person is sincere, and worshipping, and I have no qualms about that.

Again, my only concern is with people who imagine that the posture (raised hands while singing) is biblical - it isn't.

We might call singing "praise and worship" but it is singing. Everything we do should be to the praise of God and an act of worship - from brushing our teeth in the morning, to laying out head down to sleep at night. If one insists that everything we do must be done with raised hands because it is all praise and worship - well, you see where that is going?

The very, very recent "modern" church has taken the words "praise and worship" and redefined them as singing. We do praise God and worship God in song - but not especially so. It isn't the singing that is praise and worship - it is the "holy (clean) hands" that are praise and worship.

I hope that clears up my position. :-?